Hmmmm
Can we take God's grace too far? Over the last few years I have been learning a lot about how God's grace covers all and because of this we can experience true freedom in Christ. How refreshing to know that I dont have to follow all the rules and regulations put on me by man. But can I take that too far? In 1 Corinthians 5:1-2 Paul calls the Corinthian church on an issue. "It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this?"
So this is an extreme case, but what is happening is that the church was so proud of how they could do anything and be covered by God's grace! It sounds ludicrous at first but when I think about it I have to wonder if some of us (mainly myself) may be on the same track. We are a group who are proud of the fact that we can drink, gamble a little etc.(I am not taking a personal shot at anyone here,I personally enjoy a good drink now and again and I look forward to poker nights) I am not saying that there is anything wrong with these actions in and of themselves but can they become destructive? What kind of example do I set for someone who perhaps has a drinking problem? Do I let them destroy themselves and their families because I am ok with having a drink now and again? Am I proud that I dont have to live by the rules that so many other churches follow, to the point of thinking that I am better than them. I know I catch myself often on this. Am I becoming legalistic about legalism?
This is the point in my rant where I expect many of you readers to bombard me with arguments and please go ahead. I am just thinking and processing things. Im not saying that I am right, just curious.
The second thing that I have been thinking through is kind of on the same level. I know that we are suppose to let go of issues in our lives and let God handle them but at what point do we actually have to make a decision and do something? Yup I said DO SOMTHING. Let me give you an example of what I am talking about. Lets say I have an addiction to alcohol ( we always pick on the poor addicts on this one)Now I pray and ask God to take this away as I know that I can't do it on my own. Now I have a choice. I can go to AA and learn to avoid situations that I know will tempt me or I can continue on with my same life style and say "hey I prayed so if I get drunk and screw my family over its God's fault". Both of those options involve DOING SOMETHING. Maybe that is not a great example. Here's another. What if I have a bum liver and the doctor says I need a transplant. I can give it to God and just sit at home hoping that he will heal me or I can get on the transplant list and pray that God will heal me through the hands of a professional. Does that mean that I didnt just let God have it? I know that there has to be a balance between doing and letting go. Or maybe MY God is just not powerful enough.Hmmmm.
I feel that this whole "just let God have it" has become a touchy subject for many people that I am in contact with. I was recently talking to a friend who mentioned that they have become afraid to pray in public for fear that they use the wrong words when they pray and will then be condemned. This friend said that it has actually happened when they said something the wrong way and they were confronted. Well that would never happen in our church. Oh wait this friend happends to be a member of the same church as me. Tell me if this sounds familiar "Dear God please give me strength to overcome..." No wait we are suppose to say " Dear God I ask that in your strength you would overcome..." If we are admitting that we need God's help does it really matter what wording we use? Isnt that a little legalistic. I dont believe that we are to come to God with a guarded heart. When we pray we should be able to pour out our heart to our creator. He knows what we are thinking even if our words are wrong.
Anyways this has just been a little of me trying to figure out somethings. Im sorry if none of it made any sense. I am still trying to sort it out in my own mind. Thanks for letting me get this stuff out there. I welcome your comments.
So this is an extreme case, but what is happening is that the church was so proud of how they could do anything and be covered by God's grace! It sounds ludicrous at first but when I think about it I have to wonder if some of us (mainly myself) may be on the same track. We are a group who are proud of the fact that we can drink, gamble a little etc.(I am not taking a personal shot at anyone here,I personally enjoy a good drink now and again and I look forward to poker nights) I am not saying that there is anything wrong with these actions in and of themselves but can they become destructive? What kind of example do I set for someone who perhaps has a drinking problem? Do I let them destroy themselves and their families because I am ok with having a drink now and again? Am I proud that I dont have to live by the rules that so many other churches follow, to the point of thinking that I am better than them. I know I catch myself often on this. Am I becoming legalistic about legalism?
This is the point in my rant where I expect many of you readers to bombard me with arguments and please go ahead. I am just thinking and processing things. Im not saying that I am right, just curious.
The second thing that I have been thinking through is kind of on the same level. I know that we are suppose to let go of issues in our lives and let God handle them but at what point do we actually have to make a decision and do something? Yup I said DO SOMTHING. Let me give you an example of what I am talking about. Lets say I have an addiction to alcohol ( we always pick on the poor addicts on this one)Now I pray and ask God to take this away as I know that I can't do it on my own. Now I have a choice. I can go to AA and learn to avoid situations that I know will tempt me or I can continue on with my same life style and say "hey I prayed so if I get drunk and screw my family over its God's fault". Both of those options involve DOING SOMETHING. Maybe that is not a great example. Here's another. What if I have a bum liver and the doctor says I need a transplant. I can give it to God and just sit at home hoping that he will heal me or I can get on the transplant list and pray that God will heal me through the hands of a professional. Does that mean that I didnt just let God have it? I know that there has to be a balance between doing and letting go. Or maybe MY God is just not powerful enough.Hmmmm.
I feel that this whole "just let God have it" has become a touchy subject for many people that I am in contact with. I was recently talking to a friend who mentioned that they have become afraid to pray in public for fear that they use the wrong words when they pray and will then be condemned. This friend said that it has actually happened when they said something the wrong way and they were confronted. Well that would never happen in our church. Oh wait this friend happends to be a member of the same church as me. Tell me if this sounds familiar "Dear God please give me strength to overcome..." No wait we are suppose to say " Dear God I ask that in your strength you would overcome..." If we are admitting that we need God's help does it really matter what wording we use? Isnt that a little legalistic. I dont believe that we are to come to God with a guarded heart. When we pray we should be able to pour out our heart to our creator. He knows what we are thinking even if our words are wrong.
Anyways this has just been a little of me trying to figure out somethings. Im sorry if none of it made any sense. I am still trying to sort it out in my own mind. Thanks for letting me get this stuff out there. I welcome your comments.
posted by Stahled at
8:52 AM
8 Comments:
Unfortunately every church including our own has its own Professional Weaker Brother. Drives me crazy, making everyone else toe their line in the sand.
I got a 'scolding' from a woman in our very own church recently. There were kids with absolutely filthy boots and shoes who were walking on the chairs. Since I am getting pretty dang tired of having to sit on these dirty seats now, I quite calmly asked the kids if they wouldn't mind walking on the floor and sitting on the chairs, not vice versa. Well, this woman overheard my request and really let me have it. Let kids be kids, they're only chairs, lighten up, we're supposed to have an open mind in this church, what kind of an attitude am I portraying for non-believers who come in if I berate children, do I make my own children behave like little soldiers at home ... you wouldn't believe it. I must have had my mouth open, but I couldn't get any words out. I think she took my silence as realizing I was wrong, but I don't think I am. I wasn't aware I was making a legalistic request in keeping janitorial work to a minimum.
So apparently in our church we can pray wrong, worship wrong, and be comPLETEly wrong in asking children to behave. Who knew?
Still figuring this out, along with you.
I CAN'T see where someone could be all over you on this one, Your line of thinking and processing is right on. I for one agree totally with you on both points.
Annacond....Accept that some people's ideas of "let kids be kids" simply means I'm too lazy to deal with them". At some point in the future, they will be the same people that wonder why society hasn't given their kids a chance.
I think its fine to be sorting this stuff out - I find the whole "grace" thing difficult as well.. I've been on both ends of the spectrum - legalism/taking grace for granted. And finding "balance" seems to me to be a lame 'easy' answer. If I have a habitual sin in my life, and even if I've been supressing my conscience, I'll still know its wrong. And when I'm doing something thats wrong, its not natural...(in the sense of being a new creature and having the Holy Spirit) - I think its necessary sometimes to take steps to defeat these things... its not about sitting on your butt and magically waiting for Jesus to take the temptation and desire away. You have to make a choice, and its called repentance. Is it easy to say no? of course not! Will you screw up again? probably. But that doesn't mean you give in everytime temptation rolls around.
I think what it comes down to is that Jesus enables us to defeat sin. Without Him, we're just sitting ducks, certain to serve ourselves and our depraved desires in whatever form that may take. Another mistake I've made is in "trying" to 'defeat' some issue in my life, I end up focusing on it constantly. If you're constantly thinking about 'not' doing something... you're still thinking about it! The key is to find out why you wanted to do it in the first place, and fill that need with God. Easier said than done... but yeah, this is just some of "my" processing.
Annacond-I dont think you were wrong at all in your request. I know you well enough to know your heart was not trying to just boss someone elses kids around.
Unfortunately here on earth there is no perfect church. I look forward to one day worshiping Christ in perfect harmony and without denomination or seperate sets of rules.For now though I must just settle on loving God and loving man to the best of my ability through Christ. I want to continually reevaluate my attitude towards others and make sure it is in accordance with what I know God desires of me.
"Lets say I have an addiction to alcohol ( we always pick on the poor addicts on this one)Now I pray and ask God to take this away as I know that I can't do it on my own. Now I have a choice. I can go to AA and learn to avoid situations that I know will tempt me or I can continue on with my same life style and say "hey I prayed so if I get drunk and screw my family over its God's fault".
I think there is a third choice which society tends to forget. Just quit drinking. Just stop. To me, giving it to Jesus means I don't do it anymore. When I became a for-real Christian, I arrived out of heavy drug and alcohol use. I didn't go to some 12-step program. I just stopped. I stopped smoking, too, all in one day. I still WANTED to over-drink, I still WANTED to take drugs, to smoke....but instead, I just didn't.
It really was that simple. Yes, I had some physical aches and pains...but Jesus was in charge now, and I gave him my addictions. When I just couldn't take it and smoked a joint a few months later, I realized I was doing something I don't do anymore, so I didn't have another.
You ask what kind of example are we to someone with a drinking problem if we have a drink. I've really thought this through. I think I'm being a GOOD example if I have a drink and then stop, yet continue to have a good time. I think I'm showing that drinking doesn't have to control a person. I think one of the reasons we have so much trouble with alcohol in our society is because "good" people feel the need to drink in secret, to hide their consumption "for fear of making their brother stumble". Maybe the stumbling brother has never had somebody actually talk to them about alcohol...just a bunch of saints whispering behind his back.
OK, I'm not pointing fingers here, either!! =) Pride is a HUGE and terribly sneaky monster, and I agree with most of what you are thinking about. I just wanted to raise a few points for you to consider.
thanks Paula,
I appreciate your insights and personal experiences. I am relieved to hear that it CAN work to just quit and give it to God. I have been told it countless times but never from anyone sharing a personal experience.
I also like the idea of being a possitive example by drinking responsibly. I think that it has been deeply ingrained in me that I am going to "cause someone to stumble" by having a drink. It is very burdensome to carry the responsibility of causeing everyone to stumble=)
Thanks for a fresh perspective
This topic comes around the campfire more often than the coffee pot...I love it!
Our daughter sees us drink/make alcohol on a regular basis, and many of our (non prego) Jesus lovin' friends also partake. My young daughter has always known the truth, alcohol is as harmless as water...unless a person consumes flagons of it in a sitting, or there is a child inside. NO-ONE is a drunk because of wine-with-spaghetti. No one rapes and pilages after a pint of ale.( I didn't even pilage after one pint in the old days!)
The verse about the body being a temple for the Holy Spirit should also be mentioned here. I think it better that (you) look at the verse yourselves. Look at who he said it to and notice context AND content. Look around the verse. Suffice it to say, Paul wasn't speaking about...well, just look.
I believe pop psychology was able to sneek into the church and teach "weaker brothers" that they were victims and must protect themselves from their "addictive" personalities. Christian bookstores quickly stocked "christian self-help" books to meet the new thinking. (SELF-help ?..I thought Jesus...) Popular focus on the family types cashed in quickly too. By pass Jesus, read my book. Buy my resources...
Helpful people helped them in this new identity. Praying with them as they struggled as a ...
At the same time, Satan said something about "Righteousness through observing the Law", only in contemporary language. Many folks camp here even today. ( I wonder why its always about alcohol? Why not point out the sin of gluttony at the potluck? Pride about memory verses or a new car? Vanity about a size 5 figure or a six pack above the belt? What about social-economic status or standing. No one talks here do they?) I've been told I couldn't possibly be a Christian because I "drink". I didn't notice non-drinker on the brochure describing Salvation. If you want to know the truth, I have an "addictive" personality. I often want to go overboard. Drugs and alcohol mask your problems. I choose however,to try to give my problems to Jesus and to recall that I am no longer a slave to sin. My identity is CHRISTIANOS.
Paula, and thousands more, do well daily living in the Identity of Christ. Well worth pondering.
I don't really know how to approach this (these) situations. What about the 20-something woman at the pool in a bikini? Is MY sin her fault or my CHOICE? I find I get mad at the state of the country...the abusive of money and power. How best, should I deal with how this makes me feel? Is it a sin to have whopping great bags of cash and spend it wherever you like? Or is my attitude the issue again?
All I know, is that this crap makes Jesus cry. Heres a bit of theology that I can't back with Scripture:
What if Satan is actually sitting in a chair, somewhere in the cosmos, doing absolutely nothing? What if he simply rests in the accurate knowledge that many Christians would eventually get hung up on each other's freedoms or struggles? What if he knew, that as we bicker about issues that really don't matter in the grand scheme of things, our focus was no longer on Jesus.
I imagine he would say something to the effect that even though he lost the war, he won many a battle.
Don't get hung up on other people's values and belief systems. Keep a steady gaze on Jesus.Rest knowing that the indwelling Holy Spirit will give us all the clues we need.
love your heart gerl!
What an awesome blog!!!
I myself think these same topics through.......COOL great minds think alike.
Seriously we should never be hindered in how we pray or our thought processes of figuring out God, grace and everything else in between.
God understands our groans when we don't know how to pray....how can any Christian criticize another for speaking to their God. I hate that we as believers always have this sick need to nit pick and eat each other alive instead of encourage each other.
All I can say is that sucks!!! I just have to remember daily that God created us(me) to be mere images of Him and I need to just ask Him to make me more like Him daily....
the other politics and lines of thinking I pray I can leave in the wings.
Dana
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